FYI this is the cover page of Zenon's book. It is a very good book. I wrote a synopsis of it below, but my fellow classmates who are interested in it should check it out. Search on Amazon, because it's hard to find in bookstores.

Also, I found a blurb about Zenon on the 1939 Club's website. Here is a link: www.1939club.com/LiberationStories.htm

It's most of the way down the page, but if you hit ctrl + f you can search the name "Zenon Neumark."

Post-Interview Reflections

Wow, that was quite an experience. As expected, Zenon was very intelligent, relatable, and open with our discussion. I'm sure it must be difficult to talk about one's life during the Holocaust and to think about such topics so deeply, even decades and decades after the event. Zenon, of course, was extremely sharp, having written his book within the past decade and having his story fresh in his mind. He was eager to share with us, showing us his book in various languages and indicating certain photographs as he found them relevant to our discussion. As the interview is documented in another post, it's pointless to repeat specifics, but Zenon is a man, much like I saw in his writings, who can see the beauty of irony. His story would become more lively when he spoke about something that amused him, such as the coincidence of running into the man whose identity he had stolen and his amazement that his fraternity brothers in college knew so little about Europe.

At times, however, I was nervous that the questions I asked were somewhat difficult to answer or understand, and I recognize that it is much more the fault of the questioner than the respondent. For example, the question about Zenon's involvement with the church caused him to remind me, firmly, that he is Jewish and has always been Jewish. Also, in one question I used the word "guilty" when I think I should have used a different term (see the interview). There are definitely dangers of being insensitive or ignorant when discussing a topic such as the Holocaust, and I learned swiftly that I needed to avoided flirting with these dangers. I think, ultimately, that Zenon and I were able to clarify our positions and reach a comfortable level of understanding, and by the end of the interview he seemed very glad to be able to help our project.

Overall, this has been a wonderful experience, and certainly a challenging one. But the struggle was more against myself, my own impulses to speak without thinking, and Zenon himself was a real pleasure to have been able to meet and chat with. Donald (my partner) and I left Zenon's house very content with the information we accumulated, and I think we were both relieved that I had gone so well.

Pre-Interview Expectations

Before the interview with Mr. Neumark I was very excited, but also a little nervous. The excitement centered upon the opportunity to interview someone with a very unique experience of the Holocaust, which I was able to read about in great detail from his book, and to be able to engage this individual with my own questions and reflections. However, my main concern was making Mr. Neumark uncomfortable or not knowing what to say to incite good, productive conversation. Of course, the Holocaust is a VERY sensitive issue, and it must be treated delicately to avoid offending people or making them upset or uncomfortable. Also, although I had a good set of questions prepared that I had Zenon approve before the interview, I knew that my goal was to make the interview like a conversation rather than a choppy question-answer session. I wanted my questions to have some kind of flow to them, and I knew that I'd have to use my intuition to engage Zenon in conversation but know when to move the interview along. I guess in summation, I knew I'd have to be very selective with what I said and how I said it.

Fortunately, Zenon established voice very well in his novel and I felt going into the interview that I knew his personality somewhat. Even during the Holocaust (although Zenon mostly avoided the graphic violence experienced by many people in death camps) he was able to enjoy the humor of irony and coincidence, which he expressed very well in his book. It was comforting to know that he could see the lighter side of things, so that perhaps he would be friendly and relatable during our interview. With this knowledge in mind my excitement definitely outweighed my nervousness, but you still must always be cautious when dealing with a sensitive issue...

Interview

The following is a paraphrase of the interview of Zenon Neumark, conducted by Vince Brouwers and Donald Belisle. This record is not verbatim, and is reconstructed from detailed notes taken at the time of the interview.

Q: As a Holocaust survivor who ultimately avoided the concentration camps, how do you feel in relation to other survivors? How have your experiences affected you differently than it may have affected a concentration camp survivor?

A: My relationship to others survivors of the Holocaust is that of compassion, empathy. They experienced more suffering, hopelessness, and pain, starvation, difficult labor, fear, etc. I was more hopeful after the war, more ready for a normal life, didn’t dwell on it, and didn’t talk about it. I didn’t ruminate like others did, I sought an education, started a family. I did not pass my experiences on to my children like many other have. I have 2 daughters. They did not experience the terror themselves, as many other suvivors’ children have. I have come across a book written by 3 generations of survivor history, and even the third generation is deeply affected in many cases. Second generation organizations exist.

Q: How were you affected similarly?

A: The similarity starts in never forgetting. Of course I have lost most of my family.

Q: Do you think the fear was the same?

A: I probably had it a little easier even in terms of fear, although fear is difficult to compare. My fear was less immediate.

Q: Living under the guise of a Polish Catholic you seem to have taken comfort in your church community, perhaps in a spiritual way as well as material. However, at one point in your book you express disappointment that the Catholic Church, the leading voice of morality in Europe, did so little to oppose the Holocaust. And, of course, after the war you were once again free to celebrate your Jewishness. How has your faith journey progressed through this period? Where are you now?

A: I disagree, I did not take spiritual comfort in the Catholic Church. I was a Jew, and I still am a Jew. I was playing the part of a Catholic, and only went to church as a guise. At church, I was always wary. Don’t overestimate my involvement with the church. I did like many aspects of Christianity, however. A good friend of mine was a Polish Catholic, and because I liked him so much and respected how he way, I did think about becoming Christian. This friend of mine was very spirited and worked with the Polish underground. Sadly, he died while trying to help his country.

Q: Do you mind sharing the name of that individual? He sounds familiar…

A: Ah, yes, it was Wladek, I wrote about him in my book. And in relation to my comment about the church in my book, I saw that the people were helpless, and by that time in Poland all social organizations had been disbanded. Only the Catholic Church remained and they did nothing. The priest did not even address what was happening to the Jews in his sermons. They did not protest it and they did not show any compassion.

Q: As an individual who was "hiding in the open" you personally avoided some of the worst atrocities of the Holocaust, especially those of the concentration camps. You were fortunate enough to live freely (for the most part), made many friends, and lived "a life of substance" through your involvement with the Polish underground. Do you ever feel guilty that you were spared the suffering endured by millions of others? Why/why not?

A: No. I do not feel guilty.

Q: Of course, I don’t mean “guilty” as in…

A: I know, I know what you mean. I will say that I only regret that that I didn’t do more for my family. Considering my age, my experience, my lack of connections, I did what I could. By working in the underground I was at least able to help, in some ways.

Q: You were, however, able to locate your sister.

A: Yes, her name is Rena – and she survived the concentration camps. We moved to Italy after the war, and that is where she continued to live. I never talked about the Holocaust with her. Rena did not like to, and I never thought to ask. Neither of us wanted to talk about that.

Q: I was wondering about that. I thought it was interesting how recently you wrote your book, and how you remembered things so vividly after all this time. What inspired you to write it?

A: Well, first I read Ignac’s book back in the 1990’s, and I realized that much of his story was my story! From reading the accounts of other Holocaust survivors, I decided that I could do that also, but that I could do better! Holocaust survivors don’t talk too much about their Holocaust experiences. We survivors have affinity for each other, congregate together, join organizations, inter-marry, but try not to talk about experiences. Maybe it’s too painful. However, I started to learn that my story was unique. In my experience, I was able to be proactive, help myself and help others. Back when I was working, an editor of my engineering reports, an English PhD told me I should write my memoirs. I’d mentioned to him that I was in Poland during the Holocaust, and sometimes I’d bring up a story or two in conversation. I read other stories of Holocaust survivors, and decided to take a course on writing about it. And that’s where the book came from.

Q: Describe your experience in America after the war. How did American culture view and understand the Holocaust when you first arrived here?

A: American culture in relation to Holocaust – I was largely unaware of it. I simply did not talk about it, so it did not come up. I joined a fraternity at Oklahoma University, and I was always so surprised about how little they knew about the Europe he knew. I concluded that many of them understood Europe through eyes of grandparents at the end of the 19th century. They assumed I had no water, electricity, etc. But I really didn’t talk about the Holocaust. In fact, when my fraternity brothers found out I was a survivor, they were so surprised. I never talked about it.

Q: Has the American perception changed since then, and how?

A: Today people have a clear and correct view. They see it through books by historians and survivors, films like Schindler’s List, TV series, and things like that. Literature views it very correctly. There are some denials, of course, but those are the exceptions.

Q: Zenon, is there anything else you’d like to say, or any summation you’d like to give about our discussion today?

A: Yes… I would like to say that my story is typical of a person in my position (hiding in the open). I took fate into my own hands and was proactive. I gave myself the best chance to survive. I think my book asks some interesting questions: How do you have the courage to escape? How do you have the courage to stay? People still underestimate how many people escaped. Leaving everything I had behind, to go into an unknown (especially when there was a curfew and needing a place to stay) with so few contacts, was difficult. How would I find a job and earn money? I had no idea. But many people did exactly what I did. About 300-400,000 escaped from Poland since the beginning. Also, people don’t know how many people (Gentiles, and even GERMANS) helped. Many people put selves at risk to do so. The punishment in Poland for harboring Jews was death. The number of helpers is vast, but it is unknown, and even today we are still finding more and more people who helped others survive. And one more thing, I wanted to portray the Polish underground organizations. They were unbelievable, so well-organized, and so helpful. Some of what they did was too late, but what they were able to accomplish was amazing.

Introduction and Background

This blog is a chronicle and a reflection of an interview with Holocaust survivors Zenon Neumark. Zenon has written a book called Hiding in the Open, which he asked our group to read prior to the interview (so we knew the context of his experience and so he wouldn't have to repeat things he had written). For the purpose of this blog, I have summarized the book:

Outline of Zenon Neumark’s Book Hiding in the Open

Hometown: Lodz, Poland

Following the German occupation in 1939, Zenon's family was sent to Tomaszow, Poland to live in a ghetto / labor camp. He was 15.

Eventually, the Nazis discontinued education in Tomaszow so he never finished high school.

He worked at a construction company, Org. Todt, at which he learned the basics of the electrician trade.

He got involved with a group organization of young Jews dedicated to taking action and escaping the ghetto. It was called Akiba Cell and was led by Yitzhak Rosenblat, a charismatic 18-year-old. They devised plans to escape and got a few members outside the ghetto, but most escapees were never heard from again. By this time they had begun to be aware of the concentration camps.

At the company he met Mr. Kramer, a friendly supervisor, and Ignac, another Polish Jew and fellow electrician who would become a longtime friend. He and Ignac decided to plan an escape, and after stealing ID cards from some Polish workers and creating false documents they escaped the ghetto and split up. Zenon went to Warsaw, in search of his Aunt Marysia and a few friendly contacts.

Before he could meet with Aunt Marysia (who could not give him her address directly because she was a Jew in hiding) he stayed with friends of hers, the Szokalski’s, and later with a woman named Janina. At Janina’s, however, some Germans burst in looking for him and beat him up. Locking them in the apartment, they took many of Zenon’s possessions and left to get their car. Janina helped Zenon escape the apartment when they were gone, and Zenon fled to stay with Janina’s brother Zygmunt. After a brief stay with Zygmunt, Zenon met up with another contact named Kuba, a well-connected Pole, who helped Zenon find new lodgings. Zenon later learned that Janina had set him up in a scheme to take his possessions.

He was finally able to meet up with Marysia, and after settling in, was able to apply for and obtain a Labor Card under a false name (Zenon Matysiak). He got a job as an electrician at a company in Warsaw called WIFO, and rented rooms with various landlords.

During this time he got involved with several Underground operations, including ZOB (where he met Krysia, a courageous female activist and his supervisor), Miecz I Plug (a Polish nationalist org. where he met Wladek, although he later learned that the org. was Anti-Semitic) and Gwardia Ludowa (which he worked at with Roman, a Polish co-worker and friend). His jobs were mainly to help deliver aid to the ghettos.

Zenon was called on several times to help friends. Kuba connected him with Ludwig, an acquaintance of his from Tomaszow, who he helped find work and a place to live. Later he got a letter from Ignac, who he urged to join him in Warsaw. Ignac came with a friend, Stasiek, and Zenon helped set them up for a bit. The two were more conspicuous than Zenon, so they decided to move them elsewhere. They found a program that would help them escape Poland to Riga, Latvia, so Ignac and Stasiek moved once again. Zenon remained in Warsaw.

Around this time Zenon made a few attempts to contact his family in the Lodz ghetto. Helped by his connections through his Underground memberships he traveled to the outskirts of Lodz. He tried to sneak a few letters in, but was unable to get a response.

Zenon had settled well in Warsaw, and was beginning to hear that the Germans were losing the war. As a cover, he had begun to attend Catholic Mass and pretended to be Polish Catholic. However, he secretly blamed the Catholic Church for its inaction during the Holocaust.

As the Russians were approaching Warsaw the Germans sought to evacuate the city. Meanwhile, the Polish Underground had been organizing uprisings to disrupt German authority. Many people Zenon’s age were sent to concentration camps because they were suspected to be rebels working with the Underground (which was partly true in Zenon’s case, although he never partook in violence). However, Zenon found a connection in the SS who he used to work with in WIFO, and he was instead sent to Vienna as a foreign worker to help replace workers from Vienna who were sent to the front.

Once he arrived in Vienna he was placed in a temporary camp to wait for labor assignments. He contacted a secretary from WIFO, Mrs. Follman, to see if he could get a job with WIFO in Vienna. She was unable to help him due to labor laws. Frustrated, Zenon escaped the camp only to realize that he could not find work and that he could not purchase food without ration cards. He was forced to return to the camp, where he at least had food, and was eventually visited by a man with Nazi swastikas on his lapels. This man was contacted by Mrs. Follman to offer Zenon a job, so Zenon became an electrician in Vienna and was thus able to work and acquire food stamps.

Zenon made good wages in Vienna and started to live comfortably as a Catholic Pole. He made friends, first with a woman named Marianne who was the first person in Vienna to whom he admitted he was a Jew. He soon realized that the knowledge was a burden on those he told, so he did not tell anyone else for a while. Later he met a girl named Friedl while at a bomb shelter he was sent to while Vienna was attacked by the Allies. She became his girlfriend for awhile and was the second person he confessed his identity to. Eventually the Russians liberated Vienna, and Zenon was free and the war was soon over.

Now Zenon was faced with discovering what happened to people from his past. Returning to Lodz he discovered that most of his family was dead, aside from his Aunt Marysia, who he met with briefly. Also his sister Rena was alive, and he tried to find her. In Warsaw he saw his old friend Krysia. At Lodz he reunited with Ignac, who had also returned to look for family but had come up empty-handed. They were joined by Hela, a girl who Zenon knew through Roman, and they eventually traced Rena up to Germany. Rena had survived the concentration camps, and joined up with them. Together, the four of them made their way to Milan, Italy where Zenon and Rena had a wealthy uncle, and they decided to settle for awhile in Italy. Zenon eventually came to America on a scholarships to attended Oklahoma Univ. and UCLA, earning a degree in electrical engineering. He remains in LA and has kept in contact with many of his wartime friends.