FYI this is the cover page of Zenon's book. It is a very good book. I wrote a synopsis of it below, but my fellow classmates who are interested in it should check it out. Search on Amazon, because it's hard to find in bookstores.

Also, I found a blurb about Zenon on the 1939 Club's website. Here is a link: www.1939club.com/LiberationStories.htm

It's most of the way down the page, but if you hit ctrl + f you can search the name "Zenon Neumark."

Post-Interview Reflections

Wow, that was quite an experience. As expected, Zenon was very intelligent, relatable, and open with our discussion. I'm sure it must be difficult to talk about one's life during the Holocaust and to think about such topics so deeply, even decades and decades after the event. Zenon, of course, was extremely sharp, having written his book within the past decade and having his story fresh in his mind. He was eager to share with us, showing us his book in various languages and indicating certain photographs as he found them relevant to our discussion. As the interview is documented in another post, it's pointless to repeat specifics, but Zenon is a man, much like I saw in his writings, who can see the beauty of irony. His story would become more lively when he spoke about something that amused him, such as the coincidence of running into the man whose identity he had stolen and his amazement that his fraternity brothers in college knew so little about Europe.

At times, however, I was nervous that the questions I asked were somewhat difficult to answer or understand, and I recognize that it is much more the fault of the questioner than the respondent. For example, the question about Zenon's involvement with the church caused him to remind me, firmly, that he is Jewish and has always been Jewish. Also, in one question I used the word "guilty" when I think I should have used a different term (see the interview). There are definitely dangers of being insensitive or ignorant when discussing a topic such as the Holocaust, and I learned swiftly that I needed to avoided flirting with these dangers. I think, ultimately, that Zenon and I were able to clarify our positions and reach a comfortable level of understanding, and by the end of the interview he seemed very glad to be able to help our project.

Overall, this has been a wonderful experience, and certainly a challenging one. But the struggle was more against myself, my own impulses to speak without thinking, and Zenon himself was a real pleasure to have been able to meet and chat with. Donald (my partner) and I left Zenon's house very content with the information we accumulated, and I think we were both relieved that I had gone so well.

Pre-Interview Expectations

Before the interview with Mr. Neumark I was very excited, but also a little nervous. The excitement centered upon the opportunity to interview someone with a very unique experience of the Holocaust, which I was able to read about in great detail from his book, and to be able to engage this individual with my own questions and reflections. However, my main concern was making Mr. Neumark uncomfortable or not knowing what to say to incite good, productive conversation. Of course, the Holocaust is a VERY sensitive issue, and it must be treated delicately to avoid offending people or making them upset or uncomfortable. Also, although I had a good set of questions prepared that I had Zenon approve before the interview, I knew that my goal was to make the interview like a conversation rather than a choppy question-answer session. I wanted my questions to have some kind of flow to them, and I knew that I'd have to use my intuition to engage Zenon in conversation but know when to move the interview along. I guess in summation, I knew I'd have to be very selective with what I said and how I said it.

Fortunately, Zenon established voice very well in his novel and I felt going into the interview that I knew his personality somewhat. Even during the Holocaust (although Zenon mostly avoided the graphic violence experienced by many people in death camps) he was able to enjoy the humor of irony and coincidence, which he expressed very well in his book. It was comforting to know that he could see the lighter side of things, so that perhaps he would be friendly and relatable during our interview. With this knowledge in mind my excitement definitely outweighed my nervousness, but you still must always be cautious when dealing with a sensitive issue...

Interview

The following is a paraphrase of the interview of Zenon Neumark, conducted by Vince Brouwers and Donald Belisle. This record is not verbatim, and is reconstructed from detailed notes taken at the time of the interview.

Q: As a Holocaust survivor who ultimately avoided the concentration camps, how do you feel in relation to other survivors? How have your experiences affected you differently than it may have affected a concentration camp survivor?

A: My relationship to others survivors of the Holocaust is that of compassion, empathy. They experienced more suffering, hopelessness, and pain, starvation, difficult labor, fear, etc. I was more hopeful after the war, more ready for a normal life, didn’t dwell on it, and didn’t talk about it. I didn’t ruminate like others did, I sought an education, started a family. I did not pass my experiences on to my children like many other have. I have 2 daughters. They did not experience the terror themselves, as many other suvivors’ children have. I have come across a book written by 3 generations of survivor history, and even the third generation is deeply affected in many cases. Second generation organizations exist.

Q: How were you affected similarly?

A: The similarity starts in never forgetting. Of course I have lost most of my family.

Q: Do you think the fear was the same?

A: I probably had it a little easier even in terms of fear, although fear is difficult to compare. My fear was less immediate.

Q: Living under the guise of a Polish Catholic you seem to have taken comfort in your church community, perhaps in a spiritual way as well as material. However, at one point in your book you express disappointment that the Catholic Church, the leading voice of morality in Europe, did so little to oppose the Holocaust. And, of course, after the war you were once again free to celebrate your Jewishness. How has your faith journey progressed through this period? Where are you now?

A: I disagree, I did not take spiritual comfort in the Catholic Church. I was a Jew, and I still am a Jew. I was playing the part of a Catholic, and only went to church as a guise. At church, I was always wary. Don’t overestimate my involvement with the church. I did like many aspects of Christianity, however. A good friend of mine was a Polish Catholic, and because I liked him so much and respected how he way, I did think about becoming Christian. This friend of mine was very spirited and worked with the Polish underground. Sadly, he died while trying to help his country.

Q: Do you mind sharing the name of that individual? He sounds familiar…

A: Ah, yes, it was Wladek, I wrote about him in my book. And in relation to my comment about the church in my book, I saw that the people were helpless, and by that time in Poland all social organizations had been disbanded. Only the Catholic Church remained and they did nothing. The priest did not even address what was happening to the Jews in his sermons. They did not protest it and they did not show any compassion.

Q: As an individual who was "hiding in the open" you personally avoided some of the worst atrocities of the Holocaust, especially those of the concentration camps. You were fortunate enough to live freely (for the most part), made many friends, and lived "a life of substance" through your involvement with the Polish underground. Do you ever feel guilty that you were spared the suffering endured by millions of others? Why/why not?

A: No. I do not feel guilty.

Q: Of course, I don’t mean “guilty” as in…

A: I know, I know what you mean. I will say that I only regret that that I didn’t do more for my family. Considering my age, my experience, my lack of connections, I did what I could. By working in the underground I was at least able to help, in some ways.

Q: You were, however, able to locate your sister.

A: Yes, her name is Rena – and she survived the concentration camps. We moved to Italy after the war, and that is where she continued to live. I never talked about the Holocaust with her. Rena did not like to, and I never thought to ask. Neither of us wanted to talk about that.

Q: I was wondering about that. I thought it was interesting how recently you wrote your book, and how you remembered things so vividly after all this time. What inspired you to write it?

A: Well, first I read Ignac’s book back in the 1990’s, and I realized that much of his story was my story! From reading the accounts of other Holocaust survivors, I decided that I could do that also, but that I could do better! Holocaust survivors don’t talk too much about their Holocaust experiences. We survivors have affinity for each other, congregate together, join organizations, inter-marry, but try not to talk about experiences. Maybe it’s too painful. However, I started to learn that my story was unique. In my experience, I was able to be proactive, help myself and help others. Back when I was working, an editor of my engineering reports, an English PhD told me I should write my memoirs. I’d mentioned to him that I was in Poland during the Holocaust, and sometimes I’d bring up a story or two in conversation. I read other stories of Holocaust survivors, and decided to take a course on writing about it. And that’s where the book came from.

Q: Describe your experience in America after the war. How did American culture view and understand the Holocaust when you first arrived here?

A: American culture in relation to Holocaust – I was largely unaware of it. I simply did not talk about it, so it did not come up. I joined a fraternity at Oklahoma University, and I was always so surprised about how little they knew about the Europe he knew. I concluded that many of them understood Europe through eyes of grandparents at the end of the 19th century. They assumed I had no water, electricity, etc. But I really didn’t talk about the Holocaust. In fact, when my fraternity brothers found out I was a survivor, they were so surprised. I never talked about it.

Q: Has the American perception changed since then, and how?

A: Today people have a clear and correct view. They see it through books by historians and survivors, films like Schindler’s List, TV series, and things like that. Literature views it very correctly. There are some denials, of course, but those are the exceptions.

Q: Zenon, is there anything else you’d like to say, or any summation you’d like to give about our discussion today?

A: Yes… I would like to say that my story is typical of a person in my position (hiding in the open). I took fate into my own hands and was proactive. I gave myself the best chance to survive. I think my book asks some interesting questions: How do you have the courage to escape? How do you have the courage to stay? People still underestimate how many people escaped. Leaving everything I had behind, to go into an unknown (especially when there was a curfew and needing a place to stay) with so few contacts, was difficult. How would I find a job and earn money? I had no idea. But many people did exactly what I did. About 300-400,000 escaped from Poland since the beginning. Also, people don’t know how many people (Gentiles, and even GERMANS) helped. Many people put selves at risk to do so. The punishment in Poland for harboring Jews was death. The number of helpers is vast, but it is unknown, and even today we are still finding more and more people who helped others survive. And one more thing, I wanted to portray the Polish underground organizations. They were unbelievable, so well-organized, and so helpful. Some of what they did was too late, but what they were able to accomplish was amazing.